Human Rights
Translators and Interpreters
10/07/10 11:59 Filed in: Speeches
Annual conference of Translators and Interpreters – Opening speech by Jim Anderton MP
Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. A warm welcome to Christchurch to those of you who have come to our city – particularly if it is your first visit.
I’d like to thank your President Sibylle Ferner, Vice-President Patrick King, and Peter Tuffley for the invitation.
Some of you have travelled from Auckland and Wellington to be in Christchurch today. Welcome to the global capital of the South Island. You’ll be pleased to know we speak the same language as you.
You may or may not be aware that there’s an election coming up in our city and I’m standing to be the next Mayor of Christchurch. If successful, I’m serious about turning this city into a Global Centre - for IT, for food processing, for tourism.
I’d like to think that people like you will be in hot demand in this city - and that your professional services will become a growth industry in the international city of Christchurch. You might even think of moving here.
A quality service
As I was preparing for this speech today, it struck me that most New Zealanders are ignorant of the service you provide. Yet we are an increasingly a multicultural nation. The number of languages we speak is growing.
We need people like you to help us understand each other, and to help us trade with other countries.
But we don’t just need people who speak different languages, we need professional interpreters and translators.
It takes years to become a professional at what you do. Being bilingual is not enough. I don’t think many people grasp the importance in the understanding of other people and nationalities.
Your Society deserves praise and thanks for creating an organisation that recognises qualifications and encourages some form of accreditation. For 25 years it has worked hard to promote an awareness of what you do in New Zealand, and I am happy to be here today to support that. There’s a stark contrast between New Zealand and Australia in this respect.
In Australia, the importance of having translation and interpreting done by qualified professionals is actively recognized by having a national accreditation agency. That is lacking in New Zealand.
Trial aborted after bad translation
And yet not taking a professional approach can have terrible outcomes. We saw this recently when an inaccurate translation in a major methamphetamine trial meant that the trial was abandoned.
The Judge complained that "significantly inaccurate" mistakes had been made in translating evidence into Cantonese.
The defendant was facing a life sentence. A lot was at stake. He got off free because the translation wasn’t good enough. Words had been omitted, added and wrongly translated and the wrong choice had been made between words similar in sound.
The Judge said it was fundamentally important that translations in criminal trials were of an appropriately high standard. Clearly - quality is worth paying for.
When we don’t pay for it, bad things happen and people’s rights are ignored. Things can go badly wrong in the commercial sector too.
When Pepsi started marketing its products in China a few years back, they translated their slogan, ‘Pepsi Brings You Back to Life’ pretty literally.
The slogan in Chinese meant, ‘Pepsi Brings Your Ancestors Back from the Grave’.
Translating from another language into English is equally risky when done by amateurs. I heard of an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist the other day that read: ‘Teeth extracted by latest Methodists’.
Or a Copenhagen airline ticket office which had translated an advert into English: ‘We take your bags and send them in all directions.’
One of my favorites, as a good Catholic boy, is an American T-shirt maker in Miami who printed shirts for the Spanish market to promote the Pope's visit to the US. Instead of "I saw the Pope" (el Papa), the shirts read "I saw the potato" (la papa).
When times are hard, businesses that rely on good translations should resist the temptation to save money by employing people who are simply bilingual - but are not necessarily professionals.
The challenge of the internet
I know that one of your challenges in a globalised world dominated by the internet, is on-line translation services. They are free and easy to use. But they are not always accurate.
Try translating ‘New Zealand Society for Translators and Interpreters’.
Translated into German and then back into English, it comes out as: ‘Company of the sea and land news of the translators and interpreters.
And from Spanish back into English:
‘Society of the warning of the sea-track of the translators and the interpreter’
With this sort of nonsense all over the internet, it really can feel like we live in the Tower of Babel.
Once again, the moral is clear; quality is worth paying for. The internet may be free, but it isn’t always accurate.
Having said that, new technology in any industry is also an opportunity. Part of the challenge you face is to embrace that technology and make it work for you in a globalised market.
I’m sure the internet has opened up markets for you. Many of you I know, work on contract and run your own businesses.
These days you can translate material and send it back to clients across the world within a few hours via the internet. Your shop is open 24 hours a day, and that’s good for business.
Not so good for weekends and work/life balance, I know – only too well!
Don’t forget, there are other industries which are also facing the challenge of new technology. An obvious one is NZ Post. People don’t write letters as often these days, so what future does NZ Post have?
Rather than get in the bunker, and blame new technology, NZ Post has adapted its business model.
It has looked at the huge success of Trade Me for example, and decided that while people might not be getting letters these days, they are getting things picked up and delivered after buying and selling items on Trade Me.
NZ Post’s courier arm is therefore growing. It may be that courier deliveries become its key business in the future. Apart, of course, from KiwiBank – which also is the result of NZ Post adapting to the electronic communication era and falling use of letter deliveries and stamp sales.
Competition from poor countries
The challenge for you is to also adapt your business to new technology and make it work for you.
The truth is, the world will always need the services of people like you, whether it’s via the internet or face-to-face.
I know that cheap labour prices from poorer countries in the developing world can undercut your rates and take work away from you. The same has been true in other industries too - like telecommunications for example.
Call centres in New Zealand are closing at alarming rates and companies like Telstra Clear are moving their call centres from Christchurch to countries like the Philippines where wages are cheaper.
I don’t like it, and I’ll fight to keep those jobs in New Zealand and in Christchurch – on issues such as quality, customer service and local knowledge.
But if the long term trend is to move call centres offshore, then we have to find new and satisfying jobs to keep people employed. That means investing in knowledge and research and development so that New Zealand stays ahead of the global market. We all have to adapt.
(Interpreting is more than just translating)
I know that some of you here today are professional translators dealing with the written word, and some are interpreters, dealing with the spoken word.
All of you do more than just translate or interpret words from one language to another.
You serve people in our community.
This is certainly true for our ethnic communities, whether Samoan, Japanese, Somali or Iraqi. You know better than anyone, language is not only a vehicle for day-to-day communication. It is also a repository of our own identity and culture.
Many of you go into these communities, and you do it with sensitivity and empathy. You help people deal with the bureaucracy in hospitals, schools or government departments.
I know there is a growing number of people in New Zealand who either do not speak English or whose level of English is not yet good enough to deal with doctors or health providers.
The Health and Disability Commission’s Code of Patient’s Rights includes the right to a competent interpreter. But this right is often effectively denied when trained interpreters are overlooked in favour of cheap, non-professional interpreters.
The pitfalls of that are obvious when you get a misdiagnosis from a doctor or in a hospital, for example. Some people can’t even read medical instructions on a medicine bottle.
Interpreting for people is a serious business and you don’t want to get it wrong. Although, on a lighter note there may be times when you’re sorely tempted.
I’m reminded of the story of a Mexican bandit who made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas Ranger decided to track him down.
After a lengthy search, he found the bandit, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said:
"You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll shoot you."
But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish.
As luck would have it, a professional and accredited interpreter from New Zealand was in the saloon and translated the Ranger’s message.
The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree behind the Saloon.
"What did he say?" asked the Ranger.
The interpreter answered, "He said, 'Get lost, Gringo. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'"
Languages need protecting
Language is a powerful tool. I’m sure you have to use all the powers of your intellect to get the meaning of a text or a conversation right. It must challenge your sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ translations, when you sometimes catch yourself translating the same paragraph differently on different days!
I find it amazing that in 2005, a language expert was hired by James Cameron to develop an entirely new language for the very successful film ‘Avatar.’ He needed a language for the Na’vi, the indigenous race of humanoids on the moon called Pandora.
Imagine creating new sounds, new rules for grammar and a whole new vocabulary? It’s amazing that new languages can still emerge - even in the make-belief world of film-making.
Of course the reality is that the world is losing languages.
The Director of Samoan Studies at Victoria University in Wellington has said that the most recent census indicates an alarming decrease in the number of people who speak Samoan in the home, for example. It’s been said that it takes just one generation to lose a language, and three generations to build it up again.
Local Christchurch issues
Before I end, I would like to pay tribute to the Canterbury branch of your Society. In March your members met at the Refugee and Migrant Centre for the last time. This has been the venue for your meetings for many years.
Sadly, the Centre closed down this year because of lack of funding, some of it withdrawn by the Christchurch City Council, and it now no longer exists. This is a real loss to those refugee and migrant communities in Christchurch and also to your Society which had built up a long standing relationship with the people at the Centre.
I want you to know that you will have my support for your on-going work in Christchurch if I am the next Mayor.
Conclusion
Finally, I want to wish you all the best for your conference. I have nothing but praise for the work that you do in our communities. And on the theme of the conference - the opportunities and challenges that globalisation presents after the recession - I would encourage you to embrace new technology.
Don’t be afraid to adapt your business models to suit changing global markets. I’m sure that many of you are already doing this and I hope business will boom for you in the coming years.
There will never be a time when we don’t need your services, not least because we are a multicultural nation vitally dependent on world trade.
Don’t resist change and suffer the consequences - like one of the two translators overheard talking on a ship recently:
"Can you swim?" asks one.
"No" says the other, "but I can shout for help in nine languages."
Good luck for the future and thank you again for inviting me to be with you today.
Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. A warm welcome to Christchurch to those of you who have come to our city – particularly if it is your first visit.
I’d like to thank your President Sibylle Ferner, Vice-President Patrick King, and Peter Tuffley for the invitation.
Some of you have travelled from Auckland and Wellington to be in Christchurch today. Welcome to the global capital of the South Island. You’ll be pleased to know we speak the same language as you.
You may or may not be aware that there’s an election coming up in our city and I’m standing to be the next Mayor of Christchurch. If successful, I’m serious about turning this city into a Global Centre - for IT, for food processing, for tourism.
I’d like to think that people like you will be in hot demand in this city - and that your professional services will become a growth industry in the international city of Christchurch. You might even think of moving here.
A quality service
As I was preparing for this speech today, it struck me that most New Zealanders are ignorant of the service you provide. Yet we are an increasingly a multicultural nation. The number of languages we speak is growing.
We need people like you to help us understand each other, and to help us trade with other countries.
But we don’t just need people who speak different languages, we need professional interpreters and translators.
It takes years to become a professional at what you do. Being bilingual is not enough. I don’t think many people grasp the importance in the understanding of other people and nationalities.
Your Society deserves praise and thanks for creating an organisation that recognises qualifications and encourages some form of accreditation. For 25 years it has worked hard to promote an awareness of what you do in New Zealand, and I am happy to be here today to support that. There’s a stark contrast between New Zealand and Australia in this respect.
In Australia, the importance of having translation and interpreting done by qualified professionals is actively recognized by having a national accreditation agency. That is lacking in New Zealand.
Trial aborted after bad translation
And yet not taking a professional approach can have terrible outcomes. We saw this recently when an inaccurate translation in a major methamphetamine trial meant that the trial was abandoned.
The Judge complained that "significantly inaccurate" mistakes had been made in translating evidence into Cantonese.
The defendant was facing a life sentence. A lot was at stake. He got off free because the translation wasn’t good enough. Words had been omitted, added and wrongly translated and the wrong choice had been made between words similar in sound.
The Judge said it was fundamentally important that translations in criminal trials were of an appropriately high standard. Clearly - quality is worth paying for.
When we don’t pay for it, bad things happen and people’s rights are ignored. Things can go badly wrong in the commercial sector too.
When Pepsi started marketing its products in China a few years back, they translated their slogan, ‘Pepsi Brings You Back to Life’ pretty literally.
The slogan in Chinese meant, ‘Pepsi Brings Your Ancestors Back from the Grave’.
Translating from another language into English is equally risky when done by amateurs. I heard of an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist the other day that read: ‘Teeth extracted by latest Methodists’.
Or a Copenhagen airline ticket office which had translated an advert into English: ‘We take your bags and send them in all directions.’
One of my favorites, as a good Catholic boy, is an American T-shirt maker in Miami who printed shirts for the Spanish market to promote the Pope's visit to the US. Instead of "I saw the Pope" (el Papa), the shirts read "I saw the potato" (la papa).
When times are hard, businesses that rely on good translations should resist the temptation to save money by employing people who are simply bilingual - but are not necessarily professionals.
The challenge of the internet
I know that one of your challenges in a globalised world dominated by the internet, is on-line translation services. They are free and easy to use. But they are not always accurate.
Try translating ‘New Zealand Society for Translators and Interpreters’.
Translated into German and then back into English, it comes out as: ‘Company of the sea and land news of the translators and interpreters.
And from Spanish back into English:
‘Society of the warning of the sea-track of the translators and the interpreter’
With this sort of nonsense all over the internet, it really can feel like we live in the Tower of Babel.
Once again, the moral is clear; quality is worth paying for. The internet may be free, but it isn’t always accurate.
Having said that, new technology in any industry is also an opportunity. Part of the challenge you face is to embrace that technology and make it work for you in a globalised market.
I’m sure the internet has opened up markets for you. Many of you I know, work on contract and run your own businesses.
These days you can translate material and send it back to clients across the world within a few hours via the internet. Your shop is open 24 hours a day, and that’s good for business.
Not so good for weekends and work/life balance, I know – only too well!
Don’t forget, there are other industries which are also facing the challenge of new technology. An obvious one is NZ Post. People don’t write letters as often these days, so what future does NZ Post have?
Rather than get in the bunker, and blame new technology, NZ Post has adapted its business model.
It has looked at the huge success of Trade Me for example, and decided that while people might not be getting letters these days, they are getting things picked up and delivered after buying and selling items on Trade Me.
NZ Post’s courier arm is therefore growing. It may be that courier deliveries become its key business in the future. Apart, of course, from KiwiBank – which also is the result of NZ Post adapting to the electronic communication era and falling use of letter deliveries and stamp sales.
Competition from poor countries
The challenge for you is to also adapt your business to new technology and make it work for you.
The truth is, the world will always need the services of people like you, whether it’s via the internet or face-to-face.
I know that cheap labour prices from poorer countries in the developing world can undercut your rates and take work away from you. The same has been true in other industries too - like telecommunications for example.
Call centres in New Zealand are closing at alarming rates and companies like Telstra Clear are moving their call centres from Christchurch to countries like the Philippines where wages are cheaper.
I don’t like it, and I’ll fight to keep those jobs in New Zealand and in Christchurch – on issues such as quality, customer service and local knowledge.
But if the long term trend is to move call centres offshore, then we have to find new and satisfying jobs to keep people employed. That means investing in knowledge and research and development so that New Zealand stays ahead of the global market. We all have to adapt.
(Interpreting is more than just translating)
I know that some of you here today are professional translators dealing with the written word, and some are interpreters, dealing with the spoken word.
All of you do more than just translate or interpret words from one language to another.
You serve people in our community.
This is certainly true for our ethnic communities, whether Samoan, Japanese, Somali or Iraqi. You know better than anyone, language is not only a vehicle for day-to-day communication. It is also a repository of our own identity and culture.
Many of you go into these communities, and you do it with sensitivity and empathy. You help people deal with the bureaucracy in hospitals, schools or government departments.
I know there is a growing number of people in New Zealand who either do not speak English or whose level of English is not yet good enough to deal with doctors or health providers.
The Health and Disability Commission’s Code of Patient’s Rights includes the right to a competent interpreter. But this right is often effectively denied when trained interpreters are overlooked in favour of cheap, non-professional interpreters.
The pitfalls of that are obvious when you get a misdiagnosis from a doctor or in a hospital, for example. Some people can’t even read medical instructions on a medicine bottle.
Interpreting for people is a serious business and you don’t want to get it wrong. Although, on a lighter note there may be times when you’re sorely tempted.
I’m reminded of the story of a Mexican bandit who made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas Ranger decided to track him down.
After a lengthy search, he found the bandit, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said:
"You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll shoot you."
But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish.
As luck would have it, a professional and accredited interpreter from New Zealand was in the saloon and translated the Ranger’s message.
The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree behind the Saloon.
"What did he say?" asked the Ranger.
The interpreter answered, "He said, 'Get lost, Gringo. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'"
Languages need protecting
Language is a powerful tool. I’m sure you have to use all the powers of your intellect to get the meaning of a text or a conversation right. It must challenge your sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ translations, when you sometimes catch yourself translating the same paragraph differently on different days!
I find it amazing that in 2005, a language expert was hired by James Cameron to develop an entirely new language for the very successful film ‘Avatar.’ He needed a language for the Na’vi, the indigenous race of humanoids on the moon called Pandora.
Imagine creating new sounds, new rules for grammar and a whole new vocabulary? It’s amazing that new languages can still emerge - even in the make-belief world of film-making.
Of course the reality is that the world is losing languages.
The Director of Samoan Studies at Victoria University in Wellington has said that the most recent census indicates an alarming decrease in the number of people who speak Samoan in the home, for example. It’s been said that it takes just one generation to lose a language, and three generations to build it up again.
Local Christchurch issues
Before I end, I would like to pay tribute to the Canterbury branch of your Society. In March your members met at the Refugee and Migrant Centre for the last time. This has been the venue for your meetings for many years.
Sadly, the Centre closed down this year because of lack of funding, some of it withdrawn by the Christchurch City Council, and it now no longer exists. This is a real loss to those refugee and migrant communities in Christchurch and also to your Society which had built up a long standing relationship with the people at the Centre.
I want you to know that you will have my support for your on-going work in Christchurch if I am the next Mayor.
Conclusion
Finally, I want to wish you all the best for your conference. I have nothing but praise for the work that you do in our communities. And on the theme of the conference - the opportunities and challenges that globalisation presents after the recession - I would encourage you to embrace new technology.
Don’t be afraid to adapt your business models to suit changing global markets. I’m sure that many of you are already doing this and I hope business will boom for you in the coming years.
There will never be a time when we don’t need your services, not least because we are a multicultural nation vitally dependent on world trade.
Don’t resist change and suffer the consequences - like one of the two translators overheard talking on a ship recently:
"Can you swim?" asks one.
"No" says the other, "but I can shout for help in nine languages."
Good luck for the future and thank you again for inviting me to be with you today.
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Maori Party sides with disgusting humanitarian abuse
28/04/09 12:57 Filed in: News Releases
Maori Party sides with disgusting humanitarian abuse
Progressive leader Jim Anderton is disgusted that the Maori Party has sided with appalling humanitaran abuses by blocking a motion in Parliament that expressed concern about the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka.
The United Nations estimates that since January 200,000 civilians have fled their homes, 4,500 have been killed and 12,000 wounded. The Red Cross has helped over ten thousand wounded civilians caught up in fighting between Sri Lankan Government and the Liberation Tamil Tigers of Eelam (LTTE).
Today Jim Anderton asked parliament to pass a motion expressing concern about the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka, asking that civilians be spared and calling on respect for international humanitarian law. All parliamentary parties were given a copy of the notice of motion in advance. Only the Maori Party stopped it being adopted.
“The Maori Party’s behaviour is outrageous,” Jim Anderton said.
“The situation in Sri Lanka is dire. There is very little we can do from here, but one thing we can do is express support for the civilians caught up in fighting.
“No one is being asked to take sides. But parliamentarians were asked to express concern, they were asked to express support for allowing civilians to leave the combat zone, they were asked to condemn violence against civilians leaving the combat zone and they were asked to respect international humanitarian law.
“What on that list could any reasonable person be opposed to?”
The motion read:
That this House, notes its deep concern at the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka and calls upon both the Sri Lankan Government and the Liberation Tamil Tigers of Eelam (LTTE) to immediately stop hostilities to allow those civilians in the combat zone to move to safety, condemns all acts of violence and intimidation which are preventing civilians from leaving the conflict area, and calls on both sides to respect international humanitarian law and to protect and assist the civilian population in combat zone, as in the internally displaced persons (IDP) camps.
Progressive leader Jim Anderton is disgusted that the Maori Party has sided with appalling humanitaran abuses by blocking a motion in Parliament that expressed concern about the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka.
The United Nations estimates that since January 200,000 civilians have fled their homes, 4,500 have been killed and 12,000 wounded. The Red Cross has helped over ten thousand wounded civilians caught up in fighting between Sri Lankan Government and the Liberation Tamil Tigers of Eelam (LTTE).
Today Jim Anderton asked parliament to pass a motion expressing concern about the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka, asking that civilians be spared and calling on respect for international humanitarian law. All parliamentary parties were given a copy of the notice of motion in advance. Only the Maori Party stopped it being adopted.
“The Maori Party’s behaviour is outrageous,” Jim Anderton said.
“The situation in Sri Lanka is dire. There is very little we can do from here, but one thing we can do is express support for the civilians caught up in fighting.
“No one is being asked to take sides. But parliamentarians were asked to express concern, they were asked to express support for allowing civilians to leave the combat zone, they were asked to condemn violence against civilians leaving the combat zone and they were asked to respect international humanitarian law.
“What on that list could any reasonable person be opposed to?”
The motion read:
That this House, notes its deep concern at the dire humanitarian situation in Northern Sri Lanka and calls upon both the Sri Lankan Government and the Liberation Tamil Tigers of Eelam (LTTE) to immediately stop hostilities to allow those civilians in the combat zone to move to safety, condemns all acts of violence and intimidation which are preventing civilians from leaving the conflict area, and calls on both sides to respect international humanitarian law and to protect and assist the civilian population in combat zone, as in the internally displaced persons (IDP) camps.
Comparing Tamils with Te Whiti is not credible
04/06/09 12:00 Filed in: News Releases
Maori Party leader, Tariana Turia’s claim that Tamil Tiger leader, Velupillai Prabhakaran, the inventor of the suicide belt has left the same legacy and made the same historical contribution as Parihaka’s non-violent prophet Te Whiti o Rongomai and his fellow prophet, Tohu Käkahi, is just not credible from a Maori leader, Jim Anderton said today.
“When I heard Ms Turia on Waatea Radio comparing the two leaders - one from Sri Lanka fighting for a separate Tamil homeland – and the other well-known and revered New Zealander, Te Whiti - and the lesser known Tohu Kakahi, I did a double-take,” Jim Anderton said.
“Ms Turia said that Prabhakaran’s 33-year war for a separate Tamil homeland in Northern Sri Lanka had its roots in British colonial policies which disenfranchised the Tamil mana whenua from their land and when non-violent protest didn’t work, the Tigers turned to military action.
“Prabhakaran, their leader was a proponent of violence from the outset and remained so the whole of his political life. The ‘military action’ that Ms Turia talks about included pioneering the suicide belt as an instrument of assassination and terrorism, and as result of which many innocent civilians and bystanders suffered horrible deaths.
“Te Whiti and Tohu Kakahi’s greatness comes from their embrace of passive resistance, which preceded Mohandas Ghandi, and it is the kind of role model which Ms Turia and the Maori Party should be promoting particularly for young Maori, rather than the record and actions of perpetrators of mindless violence which always leads to more violence, not less,” Jim Anderton said.
See also here.
“When I heard Ms Turia on Waatea Radio comparing the two leaders - one from Sri Lanka fighting for a separate Tamil homeland – and the other well-known and revered New Zealander, Te Whiti - and the lesser known Tohu Kakahi, I did a double-take,” Jim Anderton said.
“Ms Turia said that Prabhakaran’s 33-year war for a separate Tamil homeland in Northern Sri Lanka had its roots in British colonial policies which disenfranchised the Tamil mana whenua from their land and when non-violent protest didn’t work, the Tigers turned to military action.
“Prabhakaran, their leader was a proponent of violence from the outset and remained so the whole of his political life. The ‘military action’ that Ms Turia talks about included pioneering the suicide belt as an instrument of assassination and terrorism, and as result of which many innocent civilians and bystanders suffered horrible deaths.
“Te Whiti and Tohu Kakahi’s greatness comes from their embrace of passive resistance, which preceded Mohandas Ghandi, and it is the kind of role model which Ms Turia and the Maori Party should be promoting particularly for young Maori, rather than the record and actions of perpetrators of mindless violence which always leads to more violence, not less,” Jim Anderton said.
See also here.